Disgust has an evolutionary function. It’s not something manufactured to rain on the parades of fetishists. A large part of the thrill for many is breaking taboos, breaching boundaries that exist for very sound reasons that are rarely unpacked.
Thank you for this fantastic article. We who care about and are knowledgeable about women’s and children’s safeguarding have reasoned arguments and evidence to back up our claims… including that disgust is an important gut-instinct that women and girls are all too often socialised to ignore in order to accommodate men’s violence and paraphilias! A man exposing nonconsenting women and children (and men) to his paraphilia - autogynephilia/ cross-dressing - is a man who is willing to violate safeguarding boundaries for his own erotic charge!
It’s so disappointing to see ostensibly clever people argue otherwise. Goes to show, most people are f—ing ignorant about safeguarding.
PS Edie, there’s a typo in HP’s name in the second to last paragraph, and an earlier typo “rapping”, presumably thanks to autocorrect. xx
Are we living in nonsense? Yes it’s OK is to be disgusted by vile pedophiles, and fetishes what are we doing. And those men should not gain power or sympathy.
The biggest problem with the Internet, from day one to the present, has been the empowerment of people who are unequipped to engage in rational arguments to have a go anyway. Social media, in particular Twitter, is a swirling maelstrom of idiotic nonsense, driven by popularity rather than perspicacity. It's the height of banality. Engaging with banality can only risk creating more of it.
Tribalism has infected the GC movement, as it infects any movement. I refuse to engage with it, because my most eloquent, reasonable and compelling arguments have no effect on the minds of idiots online.
I have engaged with this post merely to let you know that you have a supporter, that your point of view is valued and your writing appreciated. It must be galling to be slandered in the way you have been, but the value of your work is unaffected by the petty opinions of others. Their shortcomings are on display for all to see.
Well-reasoned! Disgust is a healthy and appropriate response to fetishists who manifest any of their fetish behaviors outside their own bedroom. Phillimore claims disgust is always twinned with extreme hate but that is not always so. As far as "genocide," that's conclusion is wrong. There's not a race or country of sexual fetishists. And we don't want them murdered; we simply want them to be kept away from children and nonconsenting adults. The fetishists are the ones who should be managing themselves. But they won't, so safeguarding is essential.
I only made it as far as 1st year, but I clearly remember being taught in psych class that disgust is one of the inbuilt human emotional reactions, and it is culturally universal. It may well have a cultural component as to what triggers it, but I think men wearing women's clothes in certain contexts is like bright red berries in the forest.
Forcing "tolerance" on Hayton's students equals advising children to accept a kindly ride home from a stranger.
If someone tells you that he is Napoleon are you required to agree with him? If you fail to endorse his delusions are you being Napoleonphobic? It it exactly the same situation if a man tells you that he is a woman. No one can change their biological sex. The mentally ill are entitled to freely live their lives with sympathy and care but not forced acceptance of their fantasies.
Great article, Edie. Genspect certainly has given the "mean feminists are genociding the poor hapless fetishists just trying to exist" a good go. That was O'Malley's angle from the start and she and her minions are sticking to it. She actually said of women critical of her platforming and lauding of boundary-violating, predatory fetishist men "some people believe that they should either hide themselves for ever more or they should die. We don't agree with this." Who in their right mind WOULD believe these men should die? We just know that if you give these men an inch, they will take a yard. Women's boundaries including the safeguarding of children doesn't kill men but Genspect sure wants the world to think so.
Yes. And I hold GenSpect accountable for understanding clinically that (for instance) if personality disorder traits correlate highly with AGP and "trans" (and they do), then AGP/"trans" boundary-transgression and manipulation can rightfully be treated like borderline or histrionic or narcissistic boundary-transgression and manipulation. We have a right to name, push back against, and deny those behaviors precisely because they're anti-social and rooted in bona fide mental illness. That's how safeguarding, pro-social values, and mental health work.
Well said. I think part of the issue is the founder displays borderline/narcissistic boundary transgression and manipulation so aligns herself with the similarly disordered men. This is why she is personally affronted by our opposition to the men's behaviour and treats women with firm boundaries who insist on safeguarding as the ultimate (or ultra) enemy. I am a "trans widow" and her behaviour is chillingly similar to my abusive, rapist ex husband.
I hear you. I'm a family survivor (elder brother "transed" midlife, long before GenSpect existed) and I had to figure out this mess fast -- fortunately I had three non-captured clinicians help me with it. Trans widows like yourself and terven hardliners are ahead of the curve on this issue.
Thank you Edie, this is spot on. And I’m glad to read your thoughts on Bailey. Every time I hear him talking I feel like he’s a wolf in a sheep pen, and that some of his claims about eg the origins of psychosexual kinks are highly dubious. Plus his minimising of the harm of child sexual assault is at best breathtakingly ignorant and simplistic, and seems to me more likely wishful thinking for whatever reason.
Plus- I had to go on Twitter and see for myself, and WTAF! Colin Wrong seems disappointingly unable to take a fantastic opportunity to show some integrity and humility by simply apologising. Why would you not? It’s such obviously good PR, plus it actually feels good when you do. He must be fast losing loads of followers.
I've been following Colin Wright for a while because he's very good at articulating the science and countering trans science -- the kind that identifies as science but isn't. I definitely get MRA vibes from a number of his articles, so am not terribly surprised at seeing some sexism from him.
I was mutuals with him for three years and we used to chat a bit. I was fully surprised when he liked a tweet saying I was a Nazi when he knew it was nonsense
Sexologist James Cantor has also argued for destigmatization of pedophiles (so they're more likely to seek help) and entertains the possibility of pedophilia as an orientation. He was absolutely arch in his GenSpect interview two years ago (https://youtu.be/yxwazu_eIyQ?feature=shared) and was critical of feelings of disgust toward pedophilia. As another commenter mentioned, disgust is an innate protective mechanism (and is not synonymous with prejudice, bigotry, or xenophobia).
Hammering at AGP is definitely the way to go - its actually quite the reveal that goodthinkfuls like Phillimore protesteth so much about invoking disgust. Its because they know damn well that if the majority knew the AGP truth there would be an intuitive wave of disgust that would roll everything back.
A first principles assessment shows there is a direct conflict of rights here, and there is no way to find a middle ground in which women don't lose. This is the bit the accomodationists/middle-groundists don't get. I do read Helen Pluckrose and I think she is being the "dutiful liberal" psychologically unable to say no to people like Hayton because they feel sorry for him or don't want to be "mean" etc.
Disgust is a survival mechanism. Disgust keeps us safe and alive, it's built-in, evolutionary. Disgust keeps us from eating spoilt food, engaging with dangerous animals, mating with poor specimens, staying in unsafe/unhealthy environments. We NEED disgust, it tells us when to get the Hell out! "Something ain't right, time to bounce!" GROSS is GOOD.
Disgust has an evolutionary function. It’s not something manufactured to rain on the parades of fetishists. A large part of the thrill for many is breaking taboos, breaching boundaries that exist for very sound reasons that are rarely unpacked.
Thank you for this fantastic article. We who care about and are knowledgeable about women’s and children’s safeguarding have reasoned arguments and evidence to back up our claims… including that disgust is an important gut-instinct that women and girls are all too often socialised to ignore in order to accommodate men’s violence and paraphilias! A man exposing nonconsenting women and children (and men) to his paraphilia - autogynephilia/ cross-dressing - is a man who is willing to violate safeguarding boundaries for his own erotic charge!
It’s so disappointing to see ostensibly clever people argue otherwise. Goes to show, most people are f—ing ignorant about safeguarding.
PS Edie, there’s a typo in HP’s name in the second to last paragraph, and an earlier typo “rapping”, presumably thanks to autocorrect. xx
Thanks, I'm the laziest writer now, by the time I get to editing, I kind of get sick of it. I've corrected that and a few other things
Are we living in nonsense? Yes it’s OK is to be disgusted by vile pedophiles, and fetishes what are we doing. And those men should not gain power or sympathy.
Everybody SHOULD be disgusted at that...
The biggest problem with the Internet, from day one to the present, has been the empowerment of people who are unequipped to engage in rational arguments to have a go anyway. Social media, in particular Twitter, is a swirling maelstrom of idiotic nonsense, driven by popularity rather than perspicacity. It's the height of banality. Engaging with banality can only risk creating more of it.
Tribalism has infected the GC movement, as it infects any movement. I refuse to engage with it, because my most eloquent, reasonable and compelling arguments have no effect on the minds of idiots online.
I have engaged with this post merely to let you know that you have a supporter, that your point of view is valued and your writing appreciated. It must be galling to be slandered in the way you have been, but the value of your work is unaffected by the petty opinions of others. Their shortcomings are on display for all to see.
Thank you Stan
Well-reasoned! Disgust is a healthy and appropriate response to fetishists who manifest any of their fetish behaviors outside their own bedroom. Phillimore claims disgust is always twinned with extreme hate but that is not always so. As far as "genocide," that's conclusion is wrong. There's not a race or country of sexual fetishists. And we don't want them murdered; we simply want them to be kept away from children and nonconsenting adults. The fetishists are the ones who should be managing themselves. But they won't, so safeguarding is essential.
I only made it as far as 1st year, but I clearly remember being taught in psych class that disgust is one of the inbuilt human emotional reactions, and it is culturally universal. It may well have a cultural component as to what triggers it, but I think men wearing women's clothes in certain contexts is like bright red berries in the forest.
Forcing "tolerance" on Hayton's students equals advising children to accept a kindly ride home from a stranger.
Outside their own bedroom or the confines of an adult only fetish space...
If someone tells you that he is Napoleon are you required to agree with him? If you fail to endorse his delusions are you being Napoleonphobic? It it exactly the same situation if a man tells you that he is a woman. No one can change their biological sex. The mentally ill are entitled to freely live their lives with sympathy and care but not forced acceptance of their fantasies.
Correct Dave, sorry about the use of you name in vain.
Great article, Edie. Genspect certainly has given the "mean feminists are genociding the poor hapless fetishists just trying to exist" a good go. That was O'Malley's angle from the start and she and her minions are sticking to it. She actually said of women critical of her platforming and lauding of boundary-violating, predatory fetishist men "some people believe that they should either hide themselves for ever more or they should die. We don't agree with this." Who in their right mind WOULD believe these men should die? We just know that if you give these men an inch, they will take a yard. Women's boundaries including the safeguarding of children doesn't kill men but Genspect sure wants the world to think so.
one minute words are not violence and the next minute they are, it's very confusing
Yes. And I hold GenSpect accountable for understanding clinically that (for instance) if personality disorder traits correlate highly with AGP and "trans" (and they do), then AGP/"trans" boundary-transgression and manipulation can rightfully be treated like borderline or histrionic or narcissistic boundary-transgression and manipulation. We have a right to name, push back against, and deny those behaviors precisely because they're anti-social and rooted in bona fide mental illness. That's how safeguarding, pro-social values, and mental health work.
Well said. I think part of the issue is the founder displays borderline/narcissistic boundary transgression and manipulation so aligns herself with the similarly disordered men. This is why she is personally affronted by our opposition to the men's behaviour and treats women with firm boundaries who insist on safeguarding as the ultimate (or ultra) enemy. I am a "trans widow" and her behaviour is chillingly similar to my abusive, rapist ex husband.
I hear you. I'm a family survivor (elder brother "transed" midlife, long before GenSpect existed) and I had to figure out this mess fast -- fortunately I had three non-captured clinicians help me with it. Trans widows like yourself and terven hardliners are ahead of the curve on this issue.
Thank you Edie, this is spot on. And I’m glad to read your thoughts on Bailey. Every time I hear him talking I feel like he’s a wolf in a sheep pen, and that some of his claims about eg the origins of psychosexual kinks are highly dubious. Plus his minimising of the harm of child sexual assault is at best breathtakingly ignorant and simplistic, and seems to me more likely wishful thinking for whatever reason.
Plus- I had to go on Twitter and see for myself, and WTAF! Colin Wrong seems disappointingly unable to take a fantastic opportunity to show some integrity and humility by simply apologising. Why would you not? It’s such obviously good PR, plus it actually feels good when you do. He must be fast losing loads of followers.
Thanks, he is dodgy AF and as a CSA survivor and advocate for survivors I see him as my political enemy
100 percent. Been working with kids / CSA the last 12 years and some things just set off your paedo radar.
I've been following Colin Wright for a while because he's very good at articulating the science and countering trans science -- the kind that identifies as science but isn't. I definitely get MRA vibes from a number of his articles, so am not terribly surprised at seeing some sexism from him.
I was mutuals with him for three years and we used to chat a bit. I was fully surprised when he liked a tweet saying I was a Nazi when he knew it was nonsense
Oh no. Disappointed as I’ve not widely read his stuff but have definitely liked some things he’s written.
Sexologist James Cantor has also argued for destigmatization of pedophiles (so they're more likely to seek help) and entertains the possibility of pedophilia as an orientation. He was absolutely arch in his GenSpect interview two years ago (https://youtu.be/yxwazu_eIyQ?feature=shared) and was critical of feelings of disgust toward pedophilia. As another commenter mentioned, disgust is an innate protective mechanism (and is not synonymous with prejudice, bigotry, or xenophobia).
Don't ever let anyone make you doubt your disgust of these men.
Hammering at AGP is definitely the way to go - its actually quite the reveal that goodthinkfuls like Phillimore protesteth so much about invoking disgust. Its because they know damn well that if the majority knew the AGP truth there would be an intuitive wave of disgust that would roll everything back.
A first principles assessment shows there is a direct conflict of rights here, and there is no way to find a middle ground in which women don't lose. This is the bit the accomodationists/middle-groundists don't get. I do read Helen Pluckrose and I think she is being the "dutiful liberal" psychologically unable to say no to people like Hayton because they feel sorry for him or don't want to be "mean" etc.
Thank you for articulating the safeguarding issue so well.
Disgust is a survival mechanism. Disgust keeps us safe and alive, it's built-in, evolutionary. Disgust keeps us from eating spoilt food, engaging with dangerous animals, mating with poor specimens, staying in unsafe/unhealthy environments. We NEED disgust, it tells us when to get the Hell out! "Something ain't right, time to bounce!" GROSS is GOOD.